John mother is heard the line and are we final -- -- -- program who's been here several times traffic consultant. Jim Walker Jim good evening thanks for being here good evening LA glad to be worried here again. I still last week he's been part of the a week. At the national committee on uniform traffic control devices to. Hi can you tell us briefly what. -- -- organization is and what I talked about last week. -- organization is a group of mostly engineers. And advises the federal highway administration on. Things that should be added or changed or deleted. From them federal manual of uniform traffic control devices which every state is required to use. We were there primarily to see if we can get the rule strengthened. On how long yellow light in your goals must be. Relative to actual approach speed. And we got a lot of engineers to agree with us -- that we have the right approach. But couldn't get any thing. Into actual regulation. This is something mad we've talked about before but tough for anybody who has not just. Who who hasn't heard those previous conversations. A red lights -- yellow light at a traffic controls signal. Should be how long based on why it's. It shouldn't it say relationship between. Approach speeds. With a minimum of three seconds which is valid for approach speeds of twenty miles an hour or lower. Pop up just six seconds which is good up to highway speeds have been at least sixty miles an hour. And and it's just sliding scale in between. Come by the most commonly used formula. If actual approach these serve up to 45 miles an hour PLO should be at least four point three seconds long. Has 35 and only needs to be three point six. Differences seven tenths of a second in that particular example. So if actual -- speeds are up to about 45. And you time -- like four and under posted speed limit of say 35 miles an hour. And get a yellow three point six it's point seven seconds too -- that's enough for the camera to make a fortune if you put up a red light camera there. And even if you don't put up a red light camera there you're almost a second short and then he should be -- and got a traffic cop sitting mayor he can pull you over and write you up for running a red light is our right. That is correct although in a split second violations. Most officers probably wouldn't -- over. Tom. Important right now we're gonna get a red light cameras eventually anyway might as well jump in them are right now. Bomb in not Pennsylvania. And you probably have -- more up to date information and I do they did an expanded somewhat. The city of Pittsburgh now has -- and I sit on hog wild in Pittsburg where they're putting them up -- some of those stories in the Pittsburgh Tribune review in the post gazette. They're trying to put the man is many intersections as possible. -- also in they've been expanded to -- include. Suburban Philadelphia. What is your main objection to traffic red light cameras as they sit right now as they're constituted right now. In virtually every case. Red light cameras ticket. The majority of tickets go to safe drivers. Force small technical -- was in danger no one. It's done in two ways one as with a short course yellows and we've just discussed the right. The other is to take it to slow rolling right on red turned square the person. Doesn't quite stopped they slow way down enough to see the traffic make sure there's no pedestrians there but they don't quite stopped. Federal research says that kind of a turn for can't force 61 hundredths of 1%. Crashes with an injury or fatality it. Six or want to hundreds of 1%. Right -- and phenomenal and and that amount is gonna win include. Big cases where the person was Broncos failed receive emergency vehicle know the odd cases. So the chances of sober competent driver having a crash from a slow whirling right on red or very close to nil. And so. How this is important so what were related to a about the difference in how long a red light is -- on the yellow light is. Is -- the speed limit is 45. And you're given. Three seconds. For a 28 mile an hour speed limit that's seven tenths of a sack and that are red light camera can shoot you going through the intersection. And send -- -- hundred dollar taken is that right. That is correct and there are many many aids cases around the country some of my laws such as in Georgia. Where. These sort of stayed or this city or county involved. Added this second to the gallows. And that will typically drop the violation rate between sixty and 90%. Usually enough that the cameras then taken down because it loses money. Doubt it wouldn't -- I have a Genesis that's residential if if they mean doom -- they lengthen the yellow lights. Too but I'm not a normal are are recommended -- recommended length of time and all of a sudden those traffic. Those red light cameras. Wind up costing a fortune to operate rather than making a fortune what operating what many. There because consumers are red light cameras are very expensive. In 2011. Philadelphia was paying 4545. Dollars per month per camera. And Abington Township put him in suburban Philly -- they just signed a contract a little bit cheaper with. Movie coming called guess so. They're 4200. Per month per camera. But they're very expensive and so. If they take it always a small percentage of actually dangerous drivers. Then the cameras lose money and they don't work nobody will put them up right. Com. If. They if if if you've got an agreement from camera operators to lengthen those yellow lights is set up the red lights based on. This speed of the approaching traffic. Would you have any further continued opposition to them. You'd also have to do not take -- most rolling right on ransom. I'd be happy to allow an exception. If the video evidence shows an actual failure to yield right away. To a pedestrian bicycle or another vehicle okay fine. I don't have a problem -- dangerous drivers not at all -- but I have a big problems -- -- safe drivers with. Small technical fouls and deliberate mr. engineering -- traffic lights. It is what we're talking about isn't -- this is trying to make money. Off the average driver is kind of a tax hike without calling it tax hike. That's that's precisely correct. In the same principle applies to speed cameras in most cases it's down a speed camera will only make money. If the posted limit is so far below the safest level. And the safest level in most cases it is the 85 percentile speed of free flowing traffic under good conditions. The speed at or below which you find 85% of the traffic on a nice thing. If you assess the speed limit there could fuel generally promote the highest safety the fewest crashes. But if you put up a speed camera there won't be true enough tickets -- -- -- its -- costs. I don't know if you -- or not I had eight state representative and I give a -- credit for and a a lot of credit for ten. Hander here last week he was on Friday any gay Christians speak. -- from the 121 legislative districts and I was running out of time I brought the -- near the end of the interview. And he said. That down the legislature looked at expanding. Red light cameras. For the revenue to try to replace revenue that is being lost through. The loss of attacks -- so there's an admission that they are revenue because generally what you hear. Is always safety we're looking for bad drivers all this other kind of nonsense when in fact. The revenue and everybody knows and now we have an admission. That's that's amazingly. Frank. It should be enough to get people really upset. To oppose the cut of the cameras because it's a scam and this game for money in this. -- -- he will break before we get in his speech here's what I did you walk or you can 1804370098. 883. 0098. -- were I've got to take a break here we'll be back in about three minutes thank you -- -- right inside the highlights around shall. Pat 9891013. 10103 point one FMW wildcat. All right 8181804370098. Day 300. And I never speaking with that traffic consultant Jim walk error and frank from factory mill. Wants to talk to Jim frank you're on W wildcat. I got a question for Jim. Among 100 year crash through and do for money once some self driving cars are thrown into the -- He's OK you know why he's got a point because I see there are -- on number Obama. Serious developments in this technology. That's a credit to come true -- that is now yup. Now that's it that's a good question and it's it's something location in the coming years. Michigan's just in the process of of a preliminary air test vehicle here. What were some ways off from -- Actual. Consumer. Political. Our rights we're having a hard time and that's connection Arabs they could barely -- -- so I kind of dropped a spot Jim speed limit so let's talk about speed limits comic and now speed Jack cameras you -- first of all in not Pennsylvania. As part of that transportation -- -- gonna talk the about the -- are so many things in and it was like a smorgasbord. I'll one of the things that was and it was there raising the speed limit from 65. To seven feet. On some. Particular. Interstates and part of the turnpike what do you think go -- of that they'll. It's certainly it's a small step in the right direction and it's not far enough for not. Won't be applied and as many places as it should make it. But it's a step in the right direction. I drive through Pennsylvania very often because their relatives from the east. And their -- the majority of the freeways both the turnpike and I eighty and 81 and 83 are all under posted. They should go by the same rules as every other road. The 85 percentile speed of free flowing traffic. -- explain that in detail for somebody who may be passing through they're not sure exactly what you mean what is the 85 percentile. It's the speed that on a nice they would no obstructions or construction or whatever. This speed at which you would find it 85% of the traffic would be at that speed or low war. So I think 85% of the vehicles would be a 75 miles an hour or lower lungs and that's the current speed limit to post. And it would tend to give you the smoothest safest most even flow of traffic. With the fewest crashes it's. Com live how about the I and and I kind of address this in the past and I'd rather hear it coming from you I want to add a. And it found that 85%. Of all accidents war on highways with speed limits a 45. Or lower. That says to me that. Slower traffic is not safer traffic. Because as well but think of -- the difference this ropes that are posted a 45 or forty or thirty. Are our normal. City streets and county roads in the end com. Lesser state -- They have driveways intersections. Sharp hills and curves. End of their places with more conflict. A limited access freeway to stop by design. -- head on collisions are almost impossible right there are no driveways or houses or businesses that open onto -- freeway. There's only an interchange every once smoked while on their well noted didn't have announced in advance. They're the safest growth we have. But the fatality rates per mile traveled on a freeway is less than half that of -- -- road. And I assumed that if you look did that even that breakdown if you looked at a very. Rural stretch of a high of our freeway and I'm thinking of interstate eighty. From limestone bail out -- was snow shoe where there's virtually nothing. Dad is even lower. Than an interstate highway hearing Ted stand -- have a 150000. Cars using it every day very correct. The chances through the radio fatality rate per mile traveled or crash rate per mile traveled. In an area such as you described and I know that area well. Is very close to nil. Absent falling asleep or suicides then. The it's just they're very they say Castro we have and a under post them it is not me it's wrong. I give you my most people Regis for example in Pennsylvania because I drive and often. Is the point Riyadh mile stretch from Humphries would south on I seventy that the -- online. It's posted it 55. On a nice day the 85 percentile I estimated about 75 cents a mile island -- price. It's about 65 estimate it at night no rain. It's grossly under posted. A lot of that in in this area and I told a couple of our real egregious examples number one and was a divided route three on -- -- hazel eyes and -- rush township they tried to set the speed limit at 25. And then tried to write up ever everybody was gone through even pentagon John David said wait a minute how he can't do back. The under posted limits have been -- mind since I was a freshman in college and that's 196263. That's when I first started learning about this situation. There are some places that do well. Texas does. You -- is they post realistic limits wherever they possibly can't the Michigan does when they don't bump up against a statutory limit. On -- state highway. And Pennsylvania as soon does not score well in the end it. Pennsylvania of course quite poorly the he had -- of trying to go to seven if you places is a little baby steps from the -- in the right direction. He let's go to Barnes now range from mountaintop our ray wants to talk to where Jimmy Walker ray you're on WI OK I had. Jim I guess or question. About -- heroics. From this semester course and the very. Little Richard till I am concerned about our. -- your role in Chicago road issues. I am and and the reality that the quality of the road. Absolutely doesn't impact on -- on safety. And -- -- the commonwealth. Parker also I think. We're seeing it on fuel now it's and which has it was absolutely unnecessary run. Yeah well we're gonna talk about that -- in not in detail ray because. There were so many different pieces and nonsense and that -- was December that just simply were not needed and are nothing but rip offs. I know I figured -- -- sort extremely hard. Administration although -- systems. Get away from it duplication. And I'd return and yeah we all of these are all fairway or fraud and abuse. Can make the most that a bit. And -- grew -- -- really scientifically and professionally goal after a fire ways -- never be perfect. That we would have a better highway infrastructure. Such artillery system. And it could be brought in or economic will be. So there wouldn't be such a burden on the text terror. How much you almost don't. I ran appreciate the call Jim what about all that. That's that's probably true and it's true in a lot of states. In many cases. Significant portions of fuel tax revenues that are supposed to go for roads go for tranda boondoggles and other unrelated. Things that's what happens here I mean now rages referenced and -- transportation -- it was two point I don't know about two point six billion dollars. Some like 30% of the west it went to mass transit all hope was sold as a road and bridge bail. Stamp allowance and to me that's that's just an outright fast. And took charges driver. Fuel taxes pay for pay -- transit system they don't use that's that. -- I agree completely. Com I got -- call from somebody who didn't wanna stay on the air didn't wanna -- but that asked a question. Is using a red light. As a stop sign. Legal or illegal I'm not quite sure what he means by that I can you explain where you can and can't use a red light and a stop sign. And they have to be used. Yeah as traffic control device is not revenue enhancement devices is that correct. That is correct and it's also a safety issue. There are rules for where you can put a traffic light or a stop sign and they're called warrants. And their based on. A lot of different things. Crash trades. -- number of vehicles to go through. A bunch of other issues. End support in a traffic light in a place that doesn't meet its warrants or a stop sign that doesn't mean it's warrants. Is likely to reduce safety not increase him. -- -- a lot when some break before we get a -- Esther got a couple of calls amount of talk format that transportation bills and my biggest peeve of everything is left slain driver's we have chaos on highways. In the United States because it is nonsense. And we'll talk about it with traffic consultant Jim Walker first open the property taxes it's right down at 830. This is -- -- -- on 9891013. 101 a three point one FMW Biotech. LA it's around talking to traffic consultant. Jim Walker. And we got down phones are lit up LED's John Bonham and talked a still from Hamburg township failure on WI OK with Jim Walker. I -- I mean this is really interest things all of a certain questions all of Puerto gentlemen Tom. All. These parties who are starting to specialize in defense made drivers. And regards these red light contraption. And no. Position to all of those -- -- in need of mobility insurance companies take time be. Very -- speed limit business. And infantry moved with my girlfriend at all maybe. The machine got to pick it preferred going to call. Want to fire miles an hour. And we should probably it's very there's also irons very good that's not posted -- opposite. And she'll know that don't want the court pressure is that the good judge your honor. And I'm sorry you don't speed limit signs on the road and it judge says -- let it go back and read your book. Well there's no sorry he stopped automatically assumed -- literally distorted. All that's not true why did tiger right now that's not true when Pennsylvania when there's no split when there's no posted speed limit the assumption is that it's. Five. I'm sorry this is what the judge called her and I feel that well. She is cute she's got an -- is well. And she's not a US citizen. It's my guess she got -- go to the ball. I -- things she did -- Jim what do you think about that that. That sounds like she got the bums rush on that one. On your other two questions. Are there attorneys that specialize in red light camera tickets and other kinds of traffic offenses yes there are. I -- one place you can find them is on the national homeowners association web site. It's motorists. World motorists got more. And we have attorneys and advertise on our site. On our side that. Specializing in traffic issues. Today is is another question -- I appreciate the call on get a little bit about com from your calls on a roll on here but we got one more question that doubts they'll last is another one was. Insurance companies regarding speed cameras and red light cameras of course. And in most cases the insurance institute for highway safety and insurance companies in general Tripoli in particular. Support improper. Speed limits because when there -- policyholders get tickets. Four of the crime of driving safely because it was a bad influence than they can surcharge these these are right term Trent -- righted itself it's a vicious racquet. Most -- stock to -- from Kingston and -- W wild guy. I -- -- camera but what I like askew com went up in the many -- -- travel at 8180 you're you know many -- The site. All of city interstate will be under construction. Hi tiger gonna get to this because I wanna get decides it is easier to imagine exactly what I was going at LA yeah most people will go one way. Have to come back the other way right arm and to meet the contractor has to do let -- and milder quote. Until site and got to do you know twenty mild one at 210 -- don't want site. At least they did so that joke around and really did in the paint -- I have both sides yeah. Eight is Indians specifically. Specific Gergen pointed this stretch of interstate 81 right outside this -- war. On the kids stay in exit you've got four different areas seems June. We got a 150000. Cars a day driving on the -- Permits for construction I haven't seen him do dying is one worth a -- out -- reader and all that time. About -- -- the way we handle construction and Pennsylvania. Then and a lot of other states and then the for serious rub board that. Is there than in force and artificially low speed on that one -- no workers and present and that's wrong. Michigan has a good rule on that. Are typical rural freeways posted seventy. They sometimes lower at 64 construction zone of the -- get narrower you're using a -- And then the sign says. 45. Queer workers at present. So you forced the driver to look for the workers and slow down when they see him. If all the workers are behind the concrete barrier it doesn't count it. And our speed traps in construction zones are I have gone away entirely. And. That's a pretty good rule that should be adopting here because -- area so even when they're behind. The construction. A construction walls and the year restrictions remain in place all fines are doubled I mean you really get nailed in this day. Well what most people don't know. Is the vast majority of worker injuries and construction sites on the highway. Are injured by other workers have their own equipment now bypassing their. So that is fact and that is as I heard that elsewhere that is actually true yes. I'd edit anything else now that it thank you know I I appreciate the call thank you I just -- another call you Jim and I was gonna bring these up anyway. What the heck is a -- arm camera. So stop arm camera is this him to. Collect money just very much the same has. Speed camera or a red light camera. It's one of those issues that emotionally you say well of course we should enforce. People look past school buses -- But if you go to the national highway traffic safety administration and get the data. The data for 2002 to 2011. They do it by decades. There were hundred is 23 under age nineteen pedestrians. Killed in school transportation related crashes. 88 up more killed by the bar. Only 35 were killed by passing cars. So the idea of somebody running so what -- -- when I hear a stoplight -- that's when we aren't comes out the stop sign comes out on that there would be a camera on it correct OK and the idea of somebody running that that happens very rarely. And in the boom boom 70s75%. Of the fatalities. Parked car by the -- Now by the passing vehicle. So if you want to do and men and electronic device due to protect children. It should first prevent the school bus driver from killing their own kids. And that's -- harsh way to stays right but it's the reality it's it's the there were 35 kids killed by passing vehicles in a decade in the country. 35 in ten years in the country. -- less than one per state. And you in a decade. It's it's it's not a nonexistent chrome but it sure is tiny. See it's it's pretty close to nonexistent. And money to remain from the cameras is very much like. Red light cameras is these -- Speaking of red light cameras. I have a story here from Cleveland Texas American traffic solutions take it just seen this okay they're going -- to try to block a public referendum and I put it on my FaceBook page and I wrote a bomb went off course they are. Because they would lose is that a is that right is what would -- would -- Ticket cameras have been put put to move thirty votes by the public and the camera lost 27 up to 90%. So it's almost certainly would lose in. A nearby towns in taxes. Did get to vote NN it was 77%. No because the camera. So there's -- when it loses it gets hammered it's not even close. And in most cases it does get hammered. The there was a case in Marietta California last year. Where a lady who got fired up I've got a petition to put it up to a vote. -- PS and red -- combined. And spent a 100000 dollars trying to stop the vote. Phillies spent 2000 dollars within national motorists association gave her small grant put -- and newspaper. And the cameras were voted out there. I also remember -- Governor Jan Brewer in Arizona one of her very first actions when she took office. Question zero budget in other words get rid of off highway speed cameras head to Arizona I had sat out because she said that they were costing the state of fortune and they and they didn't work right. That's correct there there is. From academic. Sources. And from investigative reporting reporters' sources people who are not in the revenue stream from ticket camera so there is almost no evidence that ticket parents. I'll produce higher safety and there's a fair amount of evidence that they reduced sixty. II -- a story on my page I'm gonna try to find it to read the the headline on about what it more or less and why is that there is no evidence that -- and operated fairly bad any of these odd traffic control devices that are cameras. Produce any measurable benefits at all. That's generally true. The is there nodding. Isn't you know probably but they're also a fair number of cases where you put a red light camera in the -- rate goes up. Well I can we saw that in Philadelphia worthy number of rear end crashes just skyrocketed. Between the first the year around the previous year before they went up and the first year with them they were -- the. There is one of our members Jo -- in Virginia. Is going after Virginia Beach which has some very predatory cameras. And that he's got two locations where worry go through the state crash data. In the injury crashes went up double. When the cameras were put up not not fender benders injury crashes. Inside this study I have a story up right now it's from the newspaper. I insides -- results of improperly conducted study or experiment can always be reproduced on many cite the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety studies and red light cameras is definitive. A new peer reviewed journal Arnold. Finds -- conclusions did not hold up. When subjecting to analysis and it side cite health behavior and policy review at the University of Florida found that there's virtually no benefits from the. There -- okay and they took one of the the university's South Florida the corner age just reports apart. Use the same data and showed that crashes were up not down. -- guy and a -- property taxes again Jim hang on we got -- another break to just sailed through -- -- we're speaking with traffic -- -- you wanna get in again 180437009. Age 830098840. Forests around on W -- -- LA tour. Why okay. I -- is 849. Or on the news -- line went five traffic consultant dead Jim Walker if you wanna get a and you can at 18043700988830098. General. I hear me complain about -- -- drivers. More than anything else because you've got these these idiots holed putts along at or below the speed limit in the last plane. Tie up traffic all around them so I guess I got a two pronged question for yet number one. Are there any. Statistics. Regarding accidents. And left flame cruisers and number till I see where in huge stand and have been a couple of stories here and there were around some cities are starting to crack down and not. And hit them pretty good is there any chance that this is we got this is gonna become something on a national trend -- It's certainly should. And there are some states that do -- right Colorado is one. It if you're above the speed limit and blocking traffic more Plano give -- -- You should always keep right except to pass. Obviously that goes away and rush -- it is an urban area bus. It's if it's possible to move to the right phone driver should do yes it's one of the secrets the course of the German auto bonds. Where you -- pass and then you pull back to the right. Because the car coming up behind you may be going a 140 miles an hour -- and you're doing eighty. And it works fine in their fatality rate is lower than US interstate. A lot lower than US centers -- so last -- time and again for most of the Audubon dairy is -- -- and and and how they put some in some urban areas but for the most part there really isn't -- is her. That's correct because drivers keep right except capacity and they and they pay attention to what they're dark I've driven on the you know bonds including unlimited. Speed areas. And -- the quality of driving is excellent so what's one key to get people who are pulled to the right more often. Post this big -- and I'll play. If the 85 percentile at eighty miles an hour you posting 88. The person that 72 is gonna -- in the wrong place in the -- life is so correctly posted speed limits is one of the keys to the fixing them up. And there are a lot of interstate eighty by the way it should be posted -- -- And here's part of meant that cuts through the up Poconos where the Pocono Mountains vacation bureau for example is very much in favor of speed limit speed cameras. And -- speed limit of 55. If if that's below the 85 percentile speed of free flowing traffic under good conditions it's wrong. And if -- but I mean. They could make off -- and on that that would I mean that's that's. Speed trap waiting to happen if that. Happens done in Missouri. Down and and it's just best deal. Hear your listeners we mentioned this before -- for your listeners who want to learn more about the scientific stuff from the academic research. Should go to motorists. Dot -- there's just have to kind of information on our web site. Maybe people will be enough to say hey these guys -- right -- and maybe they'll trying to. -- stop. What is -- radar. That's just speed -- okay it is what it usually means. Some people called robo cup. They had their bad deal because it safe. If you have a speed camera in a place that was dangerous and the speed limit was set correctly. I don't have a problem when that happens which you'll never see that because the camera would lose too much or. So for example if we had a stretch in the inner state where in the seventies fifth person where the 85 percentile. Said his speed limit should be seven need to speed limit is seventy. They're not gonna put a red light camera and every you know not gonna cash to many people do when 85 or ninety. That's right. The F I did some -- studies -- polite or gun just the same as well issues. And I did some speech studies on interstate ten in Texas court is posted a daily. And they 85 percentile speeds range from 81 day before. There was 1% at ninety or higher. So if you if you post correctly limits yes there'll be an occasional crazy but there'd be an occasional crazy if you have those people -- there -- sixty. Ask you what you were in did the national motorists association. Bomb sometimes finds itself having to deal with other automobile clubs there AAA and others. In general what is the reaction. From some of the other clubs. To the kinds of things you bring up 85 percentile and that sort of thing. They give it lip service but then support bad law. Mantra play is a major offender. Could play a minute mid Atlantic. They support speed cameras they support her like Paris. And they know that they're used for money. There's there are statements make it sound like the only one used for safety and where things are properly set up. But they know full well that will never happen because the cameras -- lose too much money. What about did you see the comments so involved former transportation secretary Ray LaHood this week where he said hey let's just raising gas tax. I don't have a -- with a gas tax being reset it if it's done properly and then recess relative to inflation. From one well it was last seven and 1990s. Federal tax. If you use them 100%. Of the increase on road. Commemorate you know that doesn't happen I mean in this transportation bill amiss in this state as I mentioned 30% and the money about 600 million dollars. Went to bomb went to mass transit. We've got out all right here in there that allows and I shouldn't say this to lobby -- -- -- counting hasn't yet enacted and but. The -- counties all 67 counties in Pennsylvania have the right to add a five dollar registration surcharge for every single license plates. In the accounting and on and on and on I -- made they just made you -- feeding frenzy. -- and again the first question you gotta ask is where's the money could go. If the money's gonna go to fix roads that are genuinely in need of repairs I don't have much problem with -- -- But if you're gonna spend it on boondoggles and I got a big problem yeah. And that was my argument with his -- the first place I mean I was so I was acquainted with one in the state representatives and trying to work on a bill. That god given credit for Jerry Knowles in the mock or tried come up with a list of a hundred bridges to do. Dad take about one point 61 point seven million dollars in spending on nothing but. Those roads and bridges this year and next year will take some more next -- couldn't get any traction for. So that's the right kind of an approach. You know we're listeners if if they don't like some of these things likes the cameras. And stop arm -- Rangel buses and local police getting used radar which I guarantee that's. Z abused something else I was -- get him out I guarantee that'll be abused far more than state. Police do. They need to contact their representatives and senators and say no. I don't want you to vote for this stuff. Because you got to realize that our representatives and senators are constantly constantly be in contact bright red light camera -- people while there it. I mean like constantly. Still it's it's -- money games and you. Slowly but it's slowly. Red light cameras are being defeated around the country. There's no more than sixty cities in California who have dropped them. And then national martyrs association of local groups have been part of that can help educate people. Why it's asking him -- it's not. Really about safety. Let me underscore that in case somebody -- 6060. Cities in California. Have rocked the red light cameras they already had -- Correct. It's happening in Texas Houston of course quoted a modem and you know very well right sides. -- problem. Have been five or six other places in Texas motor mouth. A couple have known in Florida they won't have the camera for a couple years and most people are wise enough and resistance is growing rapidly. I'm running out of time rapidly -- but the art are you aware of anything happening in the Pennsylvania legislature regarding this I mean it's the annual staying where the local police departments for the press and all we need radar we need radar we're gonna say lies blob -- all I kind of nonsense. -- and they ran it again. I don't think it's gone anywhere in this state but I'm not sure. I was it's the last I took a look at it was part of -- at least Ford reform bill. You and your listeners need to call their their legislators and say do not most of us it will be abused for revenues. -- give me an example of everybody all along these lines well they weren't gonna put that when we creator might turn on red in Pennsylvania there were only going to be no turn on red signs on the busiest intersections. In the state well Freel and it hasn't won a red light and it has and I'll turn on Red Sox protect us from. Out of time thank you so much for being what is tonight and won't talk again. You know what got the national motorists association. The web address one more time motor. Dot org and I'm -- -- kimono you any kind of LA high -- -- wrists. Floor all dot org correct. Hi Jim my friend thank you we will talk again thank you sir.